Hypogonadism After One Cypionate Cycle???

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lean_now
The following is a request for help and guidance as well as a brief history including all blood work results showing a dramatic reduction in natural testosterone production after only experimenting with a single Testosterone Cypionate cycle. A natural T level so low as to have my doctor diagnose me as having Hypogonadism. Will I ever have a normal Pre-Cycle T-Range again? Have I damaged my endocrine system or receptors? What should I do now?

DOB: 10/59 Height: 5’8”

My general health is excellent except for some slight elevations regarding certain items on my cardiac lipid profiles. I currently take no medications for anything and only take natural substances such as Red Yeast Rice, Policosanol and Niacin for my lipid profile although I limit the Red Yeast.

[B]November 2002[/B]
42 Years Old - 155 lbs – 22% body fat
Using ZMA, Tribulus, Chrysin, Muira Puama, not working out but generally fit & slim.
[B]Total Test[/B]: 666/714
[B]Free Test[/B]: 17.58

[B]March 2003[/B]
Stopped natural supplements, went back to gym and lifting
Blood work prior to cycle:
[B]Total Test[/B]: 598 low and I would like a regular level of 718-827 and a dosing level about 1000-1200
[B]Free Test[/B]: 14.59 low and I would like a regular level of 21-26.5 and dosing level that is higher
[B]Estradiol[/B]: 43 high and I would like a regular level of 10-30
[B]DHT[/B]: 52 high and I would like a regular level of 10-50
[B]DHEA[/B]: 495 good and I would like a regular level of 400-560
[B]LH[/B]: lab screwed up and didn’t take this test but I would like a regular level of 6.2-9.3 ???
[B]IGF-1[/B]: 171 low and I would like a regular level of >350
[B]PSA[/B]: 1.3 good and I would like a regular level of <2.6

[B]March 25, 2003[/B]
Started a Cyp cycle of 100mg per week, after 5 weeks no significant gain in weight or body fat composition. Increased appetite, increased strength, sexual appetite slightly increased(always rather high so again hard to tell)

[B]April 29, 2003[/B]
Week 6 - increased my dose to 200 mg per week(100mg 2x/week) and lengthen cycle from 10 weeks to 12

[B]May 20, 2003[/B]
Week 9 - high energy level, good strength, good sex drive, huge appetite. My weight and body fat really wasn’t changing much though and I was monitoring it everyday so I was some still concerned Added Tomoxifen through the end of the 12 week cycle

[B]June 16, 2003[/B]
Week 12 – end of Cyp cycle, I had gained about 4 lbs and lost about 2-3 % body fat. 160 lbs - 19.5% body fat My body “looked” better and I was definitely getting comments about “looking” good. I had expected more from the cycle though and was somewhat disappointed especially since I was working out hard and following a significantly modified and improved diet plus I was eating a large amount of food. I was curious what a second cycle would do for me and if it was worth it. I didn’t do any blood work during the 12 week cycle

[B]July 11, 2003[/B]
Week 16, my fourth “off cycle” week decided to do a two week cleanup cycle of Clomid and HCG

[B]August 11 & 22, 2003[/B]
Could “feel” things were not right, strength, energy and sex drive were low, “state of mind” was not quite right either but work and personal pressures were enormous so it did not overly concern me. I was losing weight.
Total Test 357, lower than ever and Free Test 12.8, my doctor noticed the low testosterone levels and prescribed
Androgel for me and wanted to see me get blood work in another month. My DHT level was very high.
I started using the Androgel
[B]Total Test[/B]: 357 low and I would like a regular level of 718-827 and a dosing level about 1000-1200
[B]Free Test[/B]: 12.8 low and I would like a regular level of 21-26.5 and dosing level that is higher
[B]Estradiol[/B]: 38 high and I would like a regular level of 10-30
[B]DHT[/B]: 148.2 high and I would like a regular level of 10-50
[B]DHEA[/B]: 536 good and I would like a regular level of 400-560
[B]LH[/B]: 3.3 low and I would like a regular level of 6.2-9.3 ???
[B]IGF-1[/B]: 178 low and I would like a regular level of >350
[B]PSA[/B]: lab screwed up and didn’t take this test but I would like a regular level of <2.6

[B]September, 2003[/B]
Joined a Martial Arts program training 3 or 4 times per week, not lifting much due to work schedule. I continuedto lose weight and body fat and was looking much thinner.

[B]September 23, 2003[/B]
Androgel for 1 month, feel better but still not quite “right”. I had blood work drawn within 2 hours of my Androgel application: my Testoterone level was elevated to a pretty good range from the Androgel but my other levels are all out of optimal ranges.
[B]Total Test[/B]: 705 low and I would like a regular level of 718-827 and a dosing level about 1000-1200
[B]Free Test[/B]: 15.6 low and I would like a regular level of 21-26.5 and dosing level that is higher
[B]Estradiol[/B]: 31 high and I would like a regular level of 10-30
[B]DHT[/B]: 88.4 high and I would like a regular level of 10-50
[B]DHEA[/B]: 171 low and I would like a regular level of 400-560
[B]LH[/B]: <1 low and I would like a regular level of 6.2-9.3 ???
[B]IGF-1[/B]: not done but I would like a regular level of >350
[B]PSA[/B]: .6 good and I would like a regular level of <2.6

[B]October 18, 2003[/B]
Broke a rib and pulled a hamstring in Martial Arts. Slow recovery unable to work out or do any exercise at all for over 2 months.

[B]December 2003[/B]
Stopped taking Androgel and started a few natural substances to see if I could get back to a baseline of where I started before my cycle.

[B]January 5, 2004[/B]
Started back in my Martial Arts, still not lifting at all.

[B]January 30, 2004[/B]
Testosterone levels are MUCH lower than my normal ranges before I ever did the Cyp cycle, Estradiol and DHT have fallen to good ranges for the first time since I have been monitoring them, DHEA and IGF-1 are starting to rise, LH is low and concerns me.
[B]Total Test[/B]: 392 low and I would like a regular level of 718-827 and a dosing level about 1000-1200
[B]Free Test[/B]: 7.3 low and I would like a regular level of 21-26.5 and dosing level that is higher
[B]Estradiol[/B]: 14 good and I would like a regular level of 10-30
[B]DHT[/B]: 38.5 good and I would like a regular level of 10-50
[B]DHEA[/B]: 381 low and I would like a regular level of 400-560
[B]LH[/B]: 1.8 low and I would like a regular level of 6.2-9.3 ???
[B]IGF-1[/B]: 201 low and I would like a regular level of >350
[B]PSA[/B]: .9 good and I would like a regular level of <2.6

[B]February 2004[/B]
I haven’t been lifting at and I feel the low Testosterone levels. My strength, energy and sex drive are all low. During the last 6 months I continued to lose weight and body fat so I am currently 142 Lbs - 15% body fat. I am particularly concerned at my low LH value.
Using ZMA, Tribulus, Chrysin, Muira Puama, IC3, DHEA, Secregogue

[B]May 2004[/B]
Using ZMA, Tribulus, Chrysin, Muira Puama, IC3, DHEA, Secregogue
Testosterone levels are MUCH lower than my normal ranges before I ever did the Cyp cycle, Estradiol, DHEA and DHT good IGF-1 lower than ever, LH is low and concerns me

[B]Total Test[/B]: 229 very low and I would like a regular level of 718-827 and a dosing level about 1000-1200
[B]Free Test[/B]: 7.9 low and I would like a regular level of 21-26.5 and dosing level that is higher
[B]Estradiol[/B]: 14 good and I would like a regular level of 10-30
[B]DHT[/B]: 35 good and I would like a regular level of 10-50
[B]DHEA[/B]: 454 low and I would like a regular level of 400-560
[B]LH[/B]: 2.6 low and I would like a regular level of 6.2-9.3 ???
[B]IGF-1[/B]: 149 low and I would like a regular level of >350
[B]PSA[/B]: .6 good and I would like a regular level of <2.6

Please Help....Thanks

By the way, for any of you that are interested I keep logs of all the products I take and the blood results they produced... pretty interesting actually  

29 May 2004 18:31

Durabolin
OK there are a number of points.

First the 100mg and later 200mg of test cyp did not produce satisfactory results as 100mg would simply put you at the top of the normal range, and 200mg whilst better for changing the body was only for a brief time.

Secondly you had spent very little time in the gym then started the low dose test, in an untrained state I would not expect you to gain well even on 500mg of test/week, steroids do not have a pronounced effect on an untrained physique unless large doses are used, and this just sets you up for injury.

OK your post test levels:

What regime of clomid and Hcg did you use after 4 weeks off? How much and how long..

You should have started the clomid a week after stopping the Test cyp.

[B]THE MAIN PROBLEM[/B]

You were given Androgel!! This is testosterone therefore you cannot expect to ever recover fully if you use the Androgel off and on!!!

By using the Androgel you effectively had 4 weeks off Test Cyp, did not follow an effective PCT and then got back on Testosterone for a month, suppressing your own system again!

The doctor over medicated you, did you tell him about the Test cyp use? He should not have put you on Androgel so readily


Did you take Androgel at all between January and May?? As your test levels have dipped again, although this could just be a daily variation

What you need to do is take the following: 300mg of clomid on day 1, then use 50mg of Clomid everyday for a further 6 weeks.

I would get your test etc levels checked after the 6 weeks Clomid and go from there.

If all you are interested in is optimal testosterone, I would strongly advise against self medicating again and go through a HRT specialist

Hope this helped  

30 May 2004 10:46
lean_now
Durabolin,

Thanks very much for your response and interest in my problem... your post was extremely informative and helpful and I hope youy don't mind but I have some additional questions... now for my questions and some more info:

First let me state that I did not do this cycle on my own but I went to a HRT clinic, which now after reading your reply and a few other quality replies, I realize my guidance from them was poor and hence my expectations were also extremely unrealistic. So far a number of common threads seem to be emerging from the responses, 1) my training regimen was weak and I was basically not training long enough or hard enough to obtain optimum results 2) the dosage level I used was also less than optimum for the results I expected or for that matter any significant gains 3) My PCT was inappropriate and ineffective and the intermittent use of the Androgel was a significant mistake

Clean-up Cycle Information
Week 16, my fourth “off cycle” week decided to do a two week cleanup cycle of Clomid and HCG
July 12th - 21st HCG 1000USP
July 15th - July 24th Clomid 51mg

Questions:

1) I have been off all steroids including Androgel for 6 months and yet my Testosterone levels seem to continue falling and this is despite my working out and my rather intense use of numerous natural substances to increase Testosterone and lower Estradiol. Am I correct in assuming that without the proper PCT my levels will not stabilize even after 6 months or longer?

2) I have been taking numerous supplements and following the LEF Male Hormone Modulation Therapy:

http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcl-130.shtml
Super MiraForte http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00615.html
DHEA 25 mg http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00335.html
Indole-3-Carbinol/ Resveratrol http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00654.html
Natural Prostate Formula http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00648.html
Tribex-500 https://www.biotestedge.com/html/tbx.html
Redkat http://red-kat.com/
Zinc 50mg/day

Yet my Testosterone levels are pathetic, my other levels are pretty good at least according to my reading so maybe the products have helped me with those but am I wasting money? Should I just stop them and do a proper PCT? Will they benefit me during my PCT?

3) I have been taking Secretagogue-One to hopefully increase my rather weak IGF-1 levels but my recent blood work showed dismal results so I will not continue. Any thoughts on this?

4) I am still unsure as to what constitutes a proper PCT for me at this point. You reference six weeks on Clomid but what about HCG?

5) Are the "optimum" hormone levels I posted earlier correct in your view? Are they achievable?

6) I am crazy to think that I will be able to do another Testosterone cycle again, possibly with HGH, after I straighten this mess out?

I know this has been another long post but I thank you in advance for your help with this.

Sincerely,
James  

02 Jun 2004 07:20
shortz
[QUOTE=lean_now]

First let me state that I did not do this cycle on my own but I went to a HRT clinic, which now after reading your reply and a few other quality replies, I realize my guidance from them was poor and hence my expectations were also extremely unrealistic.[/QUOTE]

Their guidance was not poor. In fact, 100mg per week is normal for hormone "replacement". An HRT clinic is not going to tell you to take large doses of test.

HCG takes time to kick in. You need to use it over a longer period of time, I am thinking atleast 6 weeks. Be careful, Hcg causes negative feedback in LH, so when you are using it, be sure to stop it 2 weeks before you complete taking the clomid.  

02 Jun 2004 13:29
lean_now
Shortz,

Thanks for the reply... I agree that during my original research I also noted that 100mg per week is pretty much the norm for "replacement" therapy but my particular clinic is almost exclusively body builders and my counselor said I would gain 10-12 lbs on that cycle alone, then he upped my dosage after 6 weeks which was passed the original halfway mark and I hadn't seen any real gains at all.... adding to the mess he never expressed the level of importance on PCT that I am reading about now on the boards hence my delayed PCT... I could go on but that counselor is no longer there and I did meet with another one whose has years of experience with some high profile pro athletes and body builders. When I met with him he discussed doing another cycle with HGH and then a proper PCT following that. He also wants me to work out hard in the gym for at least six weeks before I begin.

Obviously I am researching my situation on the boards before I do anything and I will talk with him again and at least 1 other local HRT clinic but I am thinking that a PCT cycle while I am hitting the gym hard for the six to eight weeks is the right way to go... then I should probably wait before doing another cycle but that is a different issue and one I will ask about on the boards before jumping in

I have recently read quite a bit regarding PCT but I must admit I am still plenty confused... I have read about the negative feedback of LH and HCG with relationship to testicular atrophy which frankly I don't have at this point so I am unsure if I should or shouldn't use HCG. I also read about the side effects of Clomid and the dosage effectiveness of Nolvadex so I am confused as to which is right for me. Additionally I have had a few suggestions regarding different PCT substances and then finally I have PCT cycle time suggestions ranging from 6 weeks to 3 months... so needless to say I still need some clarity on all of this before I proceed  

02 Jun 2004 15:06
shortz
Hcg is pretty inexpensive, so using it on every cycle over 8 weeks long is nothing unusual. LH recovers much faster than test levels too, so this is another added benefit.  

03 Jun 2004 01:09
iparadox
I have also been taking the same regimen with some success. If somebody wants to try these LEF products, I suggest you buy them from [url]www.****OFFFROMAB.com[/url]. They are a LEF distributor that sells their products at or below the LEF Members prices.  

16 Jul 2005 03:03
A.B
I dont care thats its your first post...your banned.  

16 Jul 2005 03:49
regino007
This thread was going good till para highjacked it..........lol
You are getting alot of great info here bro.I agree with the guys.At first I saw100-200per wk and was thinking that was the norm dose for HRT.And the Androgel as HRT as well.I would assume that at your age your natural production is diminishing and you may need to be on HRT from now on.I am in my mid 30s and def know when my own levels go down.
I use hCG during cycle to keep the "boys" going. After cycle and during PCT I don't use it.You are in the right place to learn all that is learnable before moving on.Keep us posted on your condition.  

16 Jul 2005 16:30
lean_now
Hello All,

Well needless to say it has been quite sometime since I have been on the forum and posted any info regarding my rather dismal problem... frankly I got so discouraged that I pretty much gave up all together. Well I am going to try again to get this under control and I will be posting and reading as much as possible. I am getting a rather significant set of blood tests done this Monday the 12th and once I receive them I will post the results and try and start fresh and solicit advice.

Thanks in advance to everyone I look forward to all your guidance...  

11 Dec 2005 01:51

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